Saints or Pompey - a statistical look - who is the better club

I love Scum banter as much as the next skate. I can't tell you how much truth there is behind the seeds of the rivalry being in dock workers from Southampton breaking a Pompey picket line. I don't know if it's just a merchant vs royal navy split. I think in all honesty it's just because we are local to each other.

I don't 'hate' people from Southampton or even all scummers. But I love the rivalry. And I don't like their club. I'm hugely biased. But I feel that our support is better and our club has more character and more history. They are a dull club with avg support and an identi-kit stadium. I think the same can be said of the cities, I love Pompey as a city and the island mentality of the people. I can't think of any where else I would want to be from. When I watch derby games I really dislike the scummers. And I'm generally a rational functioning member of society. I don't understand it, but I like it!

What I thought I'd do is try to analyse the clubs respective attributes and get some perspective. So I've selected some categories that I think would be a good measurement of success - I'm not doing it to start a fight, I have consulted with a fellow blogger and Saints fan Sam Dobson (see his site here) who suggested certain categories:

1. Trophies won
2. Fanbase
3. Quality of players over history
4. Number of years in top flight
5. Financial resources

I have basically used these categories, other than financial resources as I was looking a little more long-term rather than right now, so I replaced it with popularity amongst other fans and also added head-to-head, and I cant be accused of adding that due to bias, as Pompey's head-to-head record is poor!

I also asked Sam for his honest view of the two clubs. This is his reply:

'In terms of numbers I think our support is much greater (Home and away). We have a great reputation for bringing talented young players through from the academy and generally always play decent football. I think a lot of fans were uncomfortable with the way Pompey overspent between 2006-2010. They were bringing in players on ridiculously high wages, at the same time they were ripping off local businesses/charities who they were unable to pay when the money dried up. On the other hand I can see how people would prefer Pompey if they still enjoy traditional old grounds like Fratton Park. Pompey probably have a greater history, having won more major trophies. I think Saints fans are traditionally much better behaved than Pompey fans however. You had quite a bad reputation when it came to hooligan problems in the past, which could count against you. And you have that bellend John Westwood.'

I disagree that they have greater home and away support. Currently in numbers is true, quality of support I would disagree with. I cant argue they have a better youth set-up and I have written at length that I am a little ashamed by the overspending. We do have a greater history. They have better behaved fans. We do have John Westwood!

I have tried to make it unbiased. As I write this i have no idea who will come out on top - but i know this for true fans of local clubs, like Portsmouth and like Southampton, you dont choose a club, you are born with one and I am under no illusions that this will settle any arguments, or change any minds, which ever categories Pompey win at will appear more important to me and probably visa-versa so its with interest rather than trepidation:

All-time record

The all-time records of the clubs are incredibly close. Pompey have the 64^th best record in professional football, Saints are 62^nd. These stats need to be quantified. It takes no account for which league the clubs were involved in (for example Bournemouth's record puts them 55^th). But, for what its worth, Southampton are better in almost all categories, this is compounded by the fact Pompey have played an extra 67 games and have a total of 19 fewer points. Pompey have a GD that is 271 goals worse than Southampton. Pompey are better away from home, which seems remarkable at the moment!

		Home					Away
	Pld	W	D	L	F	A	W	D	L	F	A	GD	Pts
SFC	3546	951	455	367	3347	1975	386	472	915	1939	3118	193	4026
PFC	3613	893	468	446	3142	2031	413	470	923	2038	3227	-78	4007
	67	-58	13	79	-205	56	27	-2	8	99	109	-271	-19

Because of issues with the above method, I also had a look at league status.

Since 1920	Portsmouth	Southampton
Top tier	33	35
2nd tier	39	38
3rd tier	10	11
4th tier	2	0

Either way you look at it, its really close, but Southampton have been marginally in consistently higher divisions.

However when it comes to league success, (Pompey's titles will be detailed below) Pompey are in the ascendency. Below are the top 10 league finishes by Pompey or Southampton.

Position	Year	Club
1st	1948-1949	Portsmouth
1st	1949-1950	Portsmouth
2nd	1977-1978	Southampton
2nd	1983-1984	Southampton
3rd	1955-1955	Portsmouth
4th	1951-1952	Portsmouth
4th	1930-1931	Portsmouth
5th	1984-1985	Southampton
6th	1975-1976	Southampton
6th	1980-1981	Southampton

Trophies

The point of football, is to win games, so that you can win trophies. No-one remembers who finish second. Pompey have won the league twice. Southampton have finished runners up once. Pompey have won the FA Cup twice and been losing finalists 3 times, Southampton have won the FA cup once and been runners up three times. Depending on how you classify these things, Pompey are the 19^th most successful club in England in terms of trophies, Southampton are 32^nd. We have discussed this on the blog before, in terms of 2008, would you prefer to win something or bumble along in the premier league? I guess thats down to preference.

Head to head

The head to head is in Southampton's favour. The clubs have met 30 times in the league, with 14 Southampton victories, 8 Pompey wins and 8 draws. In Cup competitions Southampton have won 5 and Pompey 1 (although 5 of these 6 games were at Southampton)

Total attendance

This season Southampton have an average attendance of 25,738, 77.1% and Pompey have an average attendance of 13,696, 65.8%, Southampton are having a better season and at present have a better average and percentage attendance.

Having said that Pompey's record home crowd was a huge 51,385, greatly surpassing Southampton's 32,152.

As always I figured the average attendance is the best measure of enduring support. Again, its very close. 1,470,652 people have watched Pompey play since 1920, an average of 17,508 a season. Southampton have been watched by 1,462,384, an average of 17,409.

Youth Development

This is the only category with a real winner, it was one I hadnt thought of and was suggested by Sam. It was also a real labour of statistical love and I hope Saints appreciate it! I looked at all (yes all) of the 1,173 England internationals and calculated how many England appearances and goals had been contributed by players whose first club was Southampton or Portsmouth, in brackets I have included the position out of the 92 league clubs for each attribute:

Club	No of players	Cumulative Appearances	Cumulative Goals
Southampton	18 (16)	274 (8)	85 (5)
Portsmouth	11 (28)	132 (26)	19 (31)

I wont lie, this is the one part of Southampton's history and future I wish was ours!

Popularity

I got in touch with a number of blogging associates and asked them which club they preferred and why. Pompey came out on top but it is a relatively hollow victory! Most fans were indifferent towards both. Some came out in favour of Southampton because of Westwood and his bell! Some mention of Pompeys more significant history and some who like Southampton because of the admirable career of Matt Le Tiss.

Club Preferred	Reason	Club supports and site
Pompey	Long suffering fans	Everton - www.dixies60.com
Pompey	Good fans and love of DJ	Bolton - http://www.lionofviennasuite.com/
Saints	Doesnt like Westwood of Pompey Chimes	Bury - http://www.mannyroadend.co.uk/
Saints	Former player Richie Lambert	Rochdale - http://www.girlonaterrace.com/
Pompey	Long suffering fans	Walsall - http://www.bescotbanter.net/
Pompey	Arrogance of saints whilst in league 1	Brighton - http://www.wearebrighton.com/
Pompey	Aware of Pompeys history but blues have been the underdog in recent years. Also likes the character of Pompeys Naval history	QPR http://www.qprreport.blogspot.com/
Pompey	The great escape game against Pompey relegating Saints	WBA
Pompey	Pompey have more history	Charlton - http://www.doctorkish.com
Saints	Used to live in the area	Fulham - http://cravencottagenewsround.wordpress.com/
Pompey	Saints use to be a banana skin for them	Man u – manutd24.wordpress
Pompey	Arrogance of saints in league 1	Peterborough - http://standingontheglebe.co.uk/
Saints	Loved Matt Le Tiss	Spurs - http://triffictottenham.co.uk/
Saints	Dislike of Westwood	Sunderland - http://www.rokerreport.com/
Saints	Bad experience of fans at FP	Arsenal - http://acresofspace.co.uk/
Saints	Better results against them	Reading - http://thetilehurstend.co.uk/
Pompey	Love of Cotterill and Marlon Pack	Cheltenham http://www.itsroundanditswhite.co.uk/

Here are two facts that both clubs will hopefully agree with, the rivalry makes being a fan more enjoyable and Sunday will be an exciting, tense game.

So there you have it, Southampton better at playing Pompey, better at producing youth players and better at staying in higher divisions (just!). Pompey have better support, only compounded by the fact it is the smaller of the two cities, and better at winning trophies. In terms of popularity I dont think I have settled anything!

PLAY UP POMPEY.